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2 points by akkartik 1209 days ago | link | parent

I don't know :) I struggled to share some half-baked ideas in my post above, but yeah it's very hard to do rollbacks in the real world when people start to rely on infrastructure. Even my example of forcing people to sell houses in some situations is probably politically infeasible.

I'm far more confident :) just pointing at these problems to motivate that certain kinds of constructs might be counter-productive in software because they encourage the wrong kinds of dynamics. For example, I think namespaces and modules are socially counter-productive even when implemented in a technically impeccable manner, because they encourage division of labor. In even the smallest of projects, without thinking about it, we often start out with the goal of working with someone, and proceed to do so by defining an interface and then working apart. That is no fun, and it is gradually self-limiting. I think we do this because it's so easy to create interfaces and silos, to isolate ourselves from each other's changes using namespaces and similar constructs. By creating these constructs, by making them too easily available, we forget to ask if we should use them. This is, I think, an example of taking the human out of the loop. But even here, the only way I can think of to do a rollback is by trying to build a software stack from scratch.



2 points by rocketnia 1204 days ago | link

"For example, I think namespaces and modules are socially counter-productive even when implemented in a technically impeccable manner, because they encourage division of labor. [...] it's so easy to create interfaces and silos [...]"

Well, I think module systems are an essentially flawed idea just like everything else, and "socially counter-productive" is something I might say alluding to specific ways they're used, but I don't think they're implicated like that.

These days it's very easy to whip up ad hoc module systems with precise encapsulation properties, because we've already had such a push toward OO encapsulation; shared-nothing concurrency; proof systems with cut elimination; a concept of independent free will of each human; etc. However, some of the easiest ad hoc systems have obvious shallow flaws, like allowing accidental namespace collisions.

On a good day, encapsulation is great for vagueness: If I have to encode a vague concept in a precise programming language anyway, I'm going to think of more than one way to formalize it, and encapsulation gives me a buffer for trying several possible formalizations without changing the rest of the system. Encapsulation lowers the cost to tackle vague projects. It's arguably the kind of rollback you're looking for!

A technically impeccable module system would lower the cost to create technically impeccable encapsulations, thus facilitating vague projects better than ever... on a good day.

However, module systems will always have incremental upgrades to work on, especially regarding performance and logical completeness, not to mention keeping up with innovations in how we choose to share our vague concepts or how we choose to audit them back to their authors. And module systems will at best be a bit of a siren's song, since they facilitate the irresponsible practice of making things.

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"In even the smallest of projects, without thinking about it, we often start out with the goal of working with someone, and proceed to do so by defining an interface and then working apart ."

Yeah, even in cases where people specifically try to work together more seamlessly, it's hard. To be blunt about it, human bodies are already silos, and our natural language utterances are practically discrete snapshots already.

As a way forward, I'm interested in encapsulation methods that don't lie about how encapsulated they really are in practice, and I'm interested in finding a more "direct manipulation" style of programming rather than the text-editing/tree-editing we use now.

I'm kind of liking David Barbour's plan and your plan of keeping a history recording. Perhaps this recording could be the primary thing that is actually "made," and programs can be invoked from examples there rather than meticulously authored.

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1 point by akkartik 1204 days ago | link

That's interesting. I guess I'm only opposed to namespacing once the experiments stop ^_^. But it seems hard to draw that line..

"I'm kind of liking David Barbour's plan and your plan of keeping a history recording. Perhaps this recording could be the primary thing that is actually "made," and programs can be invoked from examples there rather than meticulously authored."

Interesting. I'm not sure how that would work, but in the past week I thought of a maybe-similar hypothesis: perhaps we need notational help only for scenarios. So when you open a new codebase, the first thing you should see is example runs. If you're lucky they'll be curated by the previous programmer, guiding your attention first to the most basic functionality. But regardless, you see some notational representation for scenarios, while the code itself that implements that functionality remains in a sort of assembly like language. I'm not opposed to high-level languages, but if we have a limited amount of bandwidth for managing notations, perhaps we should feed tests before code.

And yeah, I too noticed that my attention has moved from notation to tools, just like David Barbour. It happened without conscious desire to imitate him, as far as I am aware. Perhaps that means we're on the right track.

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1 point by akkartik 1204 days ago | link

Upon further thought, I'd take a world where users and forkers can create new namespaces, but every individual project restricts itself to a single one.

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2 points by rocketnia 1203 days ago | link

I'm a bit confused about where this is going. I was hoping you'd stay skeptical of division of labor and either:

- bring up some alternatives to making things:

- bring up some inexact techniques for buffering an unstable vague subproject from the rest of a project, rather than using precise modularity/encapsulation; or

- bring up some more specific technical arguments against module systems, so that I know what to look for when I'm contemplating inexact techniques myself.

I don't want to treat you as a vending machine of arguments, but if you just so happen to have ideas in these categories, I'd find them particularly interesting. :-p

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Regarding example runs: What if the only way to share a program were by example? In fact, is that true right now? What would distinguish program notation from scenario notation?

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1 point by akkartik 1203 days ago | link

I'm probably at the limit of my ideas :) I don't want to overstate how confident I feel about them. So far the best way I can think of to prevent module overuse from making codebases harder to understand is: don't support namespaces.

But I hadn't considered inexact alternatives, and I still don't understand what that entails. But it might well work better than dropping namespaces entirely. So my previous comment was in the vein of vague encouragement. Just throwing out ideas as they occur to me.

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"What if the only way to share a program were by example?"

There might well be something here! We'd need a system that can integrate multiple scenarios into a single function. But I have no idea how to build such a system, and it seems far harder than what I'm trying to build. Then again, maybe that will change as we talk about it.

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"What would distinguish program notation from scenario notation?"

I don't know yet. I suspect every program would need to invent its own notations mimicking its target domain. A browser may need notations like "when click(...) ...", while a server might need a notation like "when received(...) ...". Maybe those two can be integrated.

The general template for a scenario seems to be when X then Y. X would include events and fakes to insert into the system at various points, either carefully orchestrated or randomized like in Quickcheck. Y would include assertions of constraints of various kinds, either on the output, or on the trace generated by the system, or on invariants at various static points in the code. That's what I have so far. Can you think of anything else?

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2 points by rocketnia 1202 days ago | link

"But I hadn't considered inexact alternatives, and I still don't understand what that entails. But it might well work better than dropping namespaces entirely."

What's your goal with dropping namespaces? You keep bringing up namespaces as though they're what I'm talking about, but I don't even know what kind of namespaces you have in mind. :)

I am indeed interested in dropping certain approaches almost entirely in favor of inexact alternatives, but until I understand what those alternatives are, I can't claim it'll work very well. :-p

One example of an inexact encapsulation technique is physical separation: Two people build Lego structures on separate corners of a table, and sometimes they may construct bridges linking the two, but they can return to working on separate parts at any time. (Unfortunately, this is still an example of making things.)

There are probably lessons in architecture, improvisational theatre, sociology, and a lot of other fields where the boundaries are soft. Just because the boundaries are soft doesn't mean they can't go fast enough to compete with the automation power of logical precision... or does it?

One thing that might help in the meantime is to think not about making things but about augmenting ourselves. This way we may still be dealing with discrete this-person/that-person divisions, but at least we aren't dealing with a discrete creator/creation divide on top of that.

(David Barbour has been talking about encouraging the self-augmenting task of programming the programmer-UI, but I'm not sure I remember his motivation. Maybe I'm getting this from him.)

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"The general template for a scenario seems to be when X then Y . [...] That's what I have so far. Can you think of anything else?"

That actually sounds a lot like the Era module system. Not in the idiosyncratic details, but in the fact that we're both managing top-level sets of things that do Y when hedged under some modality X. I'm thinking of them as programs with imports, and you're thinking of them as testing scenarios with initial conditions. Perhaps scenarios are a special case of programs?

I'd say "perhaps they're complements," except that it's hard to be specific about any concept without it turning into a program at some point.

This might be why I'm interested in understanding programs as a special case of scenarios, if that's possible.

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1 point by akkartik 1202 days ago | link

Sorry, no offense intended. I think I'm ascribing to you something closer to the mainstream view than my own, so you're a stand in for the world :) Not entirely without reason; you haven't said anything in this thread but at other times you've wanted to define your modules in such a way that they'd continue to work regardless of what surrounding modules contain. I'm not sure how far you've moved away from such ideas, and I don't mean to attack you, so where I imply 'you', please assume 'everyone but me'. :)

My radical approach is: "let the caller hack my library to get it to work." Have you been converted quite that far? :)

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2 points by rocketnia 1202 days ago | link

"Sorry, no offense intended."

Er, sorry, I think I must talk in a decisive way that makes me look offended. I'm so indecisive in general, I have to take what I can get. :)

I don't know what would have offended me, so don't worry about it.

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"I think I'm ascribing to you something closer to the mainstream view than my own, so you're a stand in for the world :)"

As someone who has spent this thread denouncing the evils of truth and making things, when I hear you calling me mainstream, it's heartwarming. :)

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"Not entirely without reason; you haven't said anything in this thread but at other times you've wanted to define your modules in such a way that they'd continue to work regardless of what surrounding modules contain."

Yes, that's something I still consider an essential feature of a module system. And I think module systems themselves are a matter of course if we have a certain culture around collecting discrete snapshots (research).

But I'm interested in how much we can avoid discrete snapshots in the first place, as well as what different cultural attitudes we could adopt.

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"My radical approach is: "let the caller hack my library to get it to work." Have you been converted quite that far? :) "

That depends on what context we're discussing this in.

- In the here and now, I'm taking this day to day. I don't have a strong opinion on how much I should indulge my fondness of making things, what I should make or procure for whom, and how much I should work closely with whom. Nor do I have a strong opinion on what you should do. :-p Or maybe it's more accurate to say that I might have strong opinions if presented with more specific situations.

- For thousands of years down the line, I hope we get to "let the caller communicate with me if they want to, under the ethical and logistical supervision of our local peers." There's rarely a "library" involved, and if there is, it's the one who's saying "me" here.

- In the projects I've been working on and pondering, I already have a (very incomplete) plan to allow Era modules to break each other's encapsulation. The idea is that one module should have special privileges with another module as long as it can prove it already knows that module's implementation code or has that module author's permission. A user must have the implementation code of a module in order to install it in the first place, so they can of course hack on it and break compatibility and find themselves rewriting a whole chain of depenencies to use their customization, but this way they can sometimes just add a new module that takes advantage of having extra insider knowledge about the original.

In fact, now that I think about it, this "extra insider knowledge" access is similar to the extra information you're trying to access from your scenarios concept. Hey, we might be able to design a formal system together. :) Did you ever get around to looking at linear type systems?

EDIT to add: I was encouraged to think about this "extra insider knowledge" plan thanks to a recent LtU thread about "private" and "public" access controls: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4965. The Era module system has only one top-level definition per module, so a private definition doesn't make sense unless there's some way to break into it. Before that thread, I was already worried about what it would take to allow an author to prove extra things about the other definitions they had already published, but that's where I started thinking about a solution.

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2 points by akkartik 1202 days ago | link

"Did you ever get around to looking at linear type systems?"

I was (and still am) waiting for you to teach them to me :p

My recent explorations are hardening my bias for operational/ugly/imperative approaches over declarative/elegant/functional ones. The trouble with being elegant is that the implementation is harder to tinker with without causing subtle issues. Later readers have to understand global properties at a deep level.

Don't get me wrong, there's room for high-level languages in my world-view. They're just harder to communicate the big picture of, and I want to start with simpler problems. High-level languages and type systems are hard crystals, and I'm currently more interested in building squishy cells.

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2 points by rocketnia 1202 days ago | link

"I'm currently more interested in building squishy cells."

I respect that, but just to get it written down, here's what I've come up with so far:

All lambda expressions must be lambda-lifted so they're at the top level of some module. (I guess this might count as a lambda-free logical framework.)

Every function type (X -> Y) is annotated as (X -> [C] Y) with the implementation code C of that function's source module. A simple export/import of an X-to-Y function will actually bind an import variable of the type (existscode C. (SatisfiesSignature S C * (X -> [C] Y))), where S is the import signature.

If a module has access to installed implementation code C and it knows SatisfiesSignature S C and SatisfiesSignature S C', then it can conclude C = C'. It can take advantage of this knowledge to get access to fuller knowledge about how an (X -> [C'] Y) function behaves.

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"I was (and still am) waiting for you to teach them to me :p"

Really? I don't remember where we left off, but let's get in touch on this.

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